Tanya Jawab HoD: on 71
Sabtu, 19 Sep '09 20:50
Yes, I viewed it as an emergency, i still do.
I thought the escalation of hostility was reaching an alarming point and I wondered if the President was getting the best advise - which is the reason why i wrote to Mr. Andi Mallarangeng.
I tried not to second guess the President. I believe President Yudhoyono have best advisors and i hope he had the chance to review the options available to him.
After the Presidential address however, it was clear that the President was not getting the best advice because he took the one option that was not available to him.
With all due respect sir, yes I do think that the President do not have the authority to circumvent the other branches of government.
A PERPPU is a bad precedent in exercising executive prerogative and Indonesia has a very long history of such abuse. In my opinion, PERPPU - for almost any reasons whatsoever - is a flagrant abuse of Executive powers and a violations of the citizens right.
As a legal instrument, it is in place ONLY for the purpose of very specific and very narrow circumstances but PERPPU (In Indonesia or in other civilized countries) - is not used to set policies. I disagree to issuance of any PERPPU categorically, under all and any circumstances except in the most urgent emergency like Natural disaster or war and then ONLY with explicit and non negotiable expiration date.
I think Indonesia - as a nation - must be comitted enough to combat corruption that any efforts in doing so can only be taken seriously if it's done by everyone.
No sir, i am not telling the President what to do. I will not even pretend to know what that is. I say only what thing i know, and demand only the one thing that any citizens may rightly demand from their leaders: LEADERSHIP.
This case is too thick with politics and conflicts of interests, any idiot can see that. Let's not step back 10 years in some funky thrill scandalous ride, just because the tabloids are hungry.
Leadership does not happen by seizures and exercise of executive powers through private phonecalls in holiday weekends.
KPK is not, and was never a cabinet position. The president doesn't get to point his nominee on the board. One of the key success of the comission was that the leadership went through what is probably the most rigorous scrutiny of any other public officials in Indonesia.
The Law says that. It demands that everyone in the Nation gets to participate in combating corruption. Democracy requires participation so the people owns up to it. The commitments to move from the mistakes of the Soeharto government and to move forward for a better - more accountable government with checks and balances in the system.
The exercise of executive powers by issuing PERPPU in this case violates the constitutional rights of the citizens of indonesia to participate in their aspirations, as prescribed in the Constitution.
The President have many options, great many of things are available to him, because Indonesian citizens granted him that authority. 60 million indonesian voted for him in office.
He can do great number of things, but not this one. I don't think Indonesian citizens voted for him to take away their rights.
HoD, we can discuss your definition of the word "Liberty" later but at this point, i tend to think that you probably don't really know what it means.
Tag: KPK, SBY, media, Cikeas, Perppu, cicak buaya
Terkait:
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Tanya Jawab Andi Mallarangeng (Part II: SBY/KPK/INDONESIA)
Jumat, 18 Sep '09 18:55 -
Tanya Jawab Andi Mallarangeng
Selasa, 15 Sep '09 05:53 -
Sebuah Negeri
Minggu, 13 Des '09 08:43
Media Terkait:
Siapa saja yang merating artikel ini:
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Frost: Menarik
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conscientizacao: Menarik
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ndhasatos: Penting
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ndableg: Bagus
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Striding Cloud: Inspiratif
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NOS: Penting
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hamatamu: Menarik
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boiga: Menarik
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Forlorn Hermit: Lucu
KRMT Roy Suryo Notodiprojo, Anggota Komisi I DPR RI
Komentar:
from conscientizacao:
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. LIBERTY is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" - Benjamin Franklin
From wikipedia:
[__Common civil liberties include the rights of people, freedom of religion, and freedom of speech, and additionally, the right to due process, to a trial, to own property, and to privacy.__]
Ref. [ http://en.wikiped…ivil_liberty ]
I refuse to participate in an argument where it can be resolved by a wiki.
.
What kind of argument you want to participate then?
Every argument have a counter-argument for it, and every problem must have a solution, that is the law of dualism.
Unless, what you mean by argument is just another old song here that most people already tired of hearing...
To me, that sums it all.
Almost exactly one year ago, today.
http://treespotte…ernment.html
There’s a chance that my observation is wrong. Maybe I’m just an alarmist. Maybe it’s a good thing that freedom is just something people take for granted. People really shouldn’t be required to fight for freedom. They deserve to be born into one, except that most people had not the luxury of choosing where they would turn up. They should just take it for granted and fight if somebody took it away. They probably would, too.
- that's from my notes, specific on Freedom in Indonesia, April 2008.
http://treespotte…sia-now.html
Good for you.
To be quite honestly, i read your blogs from time to time, but no longer interested on it now.
I can see that you have no arguments against wiki's definition. I consider that answered.
i have no arguments what Ben Franklin says. I am almost always nodding to what i read of him. But i wasn't holding an argument with him.
I said i don't think YOU understand what it means.
Do humor me, i've not much to do this weekend.
LOL.
Ok Almighty Treespotter.
If you THINK that your knowledge is far too superior than mine to understand those simple words such as "privacy" and those sort of things. Then there is no point of arguing.
FYI, I've been arguing on "basic rights" concept, as far as quoting US constitution.
[ Ref. http://politikana…omment-13295 ]
So i think i quite know what im talking about.
My current opinion about you though, you're just another english-speaker with some sort of superiority complex.
*somehow you remind me of some writings of kipling.
Its a trick question.
did i just got hushed for calling him stupid? my apologies citizens, your anonymous blogger is often loose with a short fuse. yes.
but you have to admit, it's kinda hard to argue with a knucklehead.
I never said that the existing laws in Indonesia are enough. I have always argued that Indonesia needs a better system to fight corruption.
that's why it is important that the next Anti Corruption Law, as well as countless numbers of other things - Indonesia's battle against corruption in the system is far from over. I have the august numbers for Indonesia on the blog yesterday if you want to know how much money is lost in this country due to stupidity (30 trillion or so).
I have urged, in just about every threads i participated in as well as in a number of other posts and discussions on the internet and off the internet, that for Indonesia to take corruption seriously, where everyone gets to participate in the process. Indonesian Constitutions demands that. President, DPR, MA, MK, KPK, BPK, BI but most importantly the people at large.
This is not happening through a zealot prosecution and to be resolved by private conference calls in the busiest holiday night in the year. That is an abuse of executive power.
I called you stupid for not being able to see that.
I called you a knucklehead for insisting on calling yourself a libertarian.
Dude, first of all, that PERPPU can be corrected and/or rejected by MPs. Second of all, it has been said that they want people's opinion on the persons to lead.
I still see some degree of control towards it via MPs, even though it will take quite some time.
As for KPK, we only know that it can be controlled by PERPPU just NOW.
Does the new PERPPU change anything? No, just the persons. So what does it have to do with my objections towards their power? nothing. They still have too much power.
At least now I KNOW that there is an instrument of law that can be used to control KPK. I no longer view KPK as totally absolute.
Its just temporary law, It will be good for some times, until we get the to the trials, IF there is any, since MK already says something else.
[__This is not happening through a zealot prosecution and to be resolved by private conference calls in the busiest holiday night in the year. That is an abuse of executive power.__]
So you mean, the president is not a president in holiday night ?
I didnt even realize that this is holiday night...
Saya setuju. Saya pikir seharusnya Presiden cukup meminta Polri untuk menghentikan penyidikan. Apalagi Ketua MK sudah menyatakan bahwa Polisi tidak berhak menyidik kasus itu. http://www.detikn…impinan-kpk.
You see, this is the sort of knucklehead discussions that got me calling you stupid.
QUOTE:
At least now I KNOW that there is an instrument of law that can be used to control KPK. I no longer view KPK as totally absolute.
END QUOTE.
PERPPU IS Peraturan Pemerintah PENGGANTI UNDANG UNDANG. In English, it's "Executive Order In Lieu of Law"
For the language challenged, it means a presidential order INSTEAD of law.
It is not an instrument of law by definition.
The KPK powers are nowhere near absolute. They wouldn't be so deep in shitcreek otherwise.
The President is a President on any nights of the year. The Constitutional Supreme Justice is only a Justice when he's in his Courtroom issuing real verdicts.
Not telephone commentary.
please return after you educate yourself clicking links.
Let's not turn this into a scrabble game - you can use whatever language you want, and so will me.
Schadenfreude - it's capitalized.
what i mean is, if we're just going to be swapping links, we can just do it in twitter. I'm not here for a wikipedia lesson.
During the previous thread you seem to have indicated that you have some fundamental objections to not only KPK's authority of wiretapping - but against wiretapping in general.
I am also familiar with the debates and discussions in some parts of the Indonesian Anti Corruption Laws and i had my concerns then.
Since i wrote a position paper arguing almost exactly that - that wiretaps are essentially a violation of citizens right - a few years ago when i was still at school, you will pardon my curiosity to hear your arguments.
btw, if you're curious, you said you're 30, i am right about your age.
As far as I remember, at that time discussion about changes needed in KUHAP (which was referred in UU KPK) so that it will keep up to date with technology was something that was discussed seriously and not a laughable matter.
fello citizen If you're not bored with links have a look at this : http://politikana…iam-menyadap and some last comments by rasil about effort to update KUHAP from depkum.
i like clicking on things. by all means.
also, no i don't think we're intimate. HoD was persistent on appearing smart everywhere with big words and channeling some twisted modern day Guevara on Rails.
I'm just amusing myself cuz i got nothing better to do.
[__PERPPU IS Peraturan Pemerintah PENGGANTI UNDANG UNDANG. In English, it's "Executive Order In Lieu of Law" __]
It can become law (UU), if the MPs want to. An XO is effectively a law.
[__Schadenfreude - it's capitalized. __]
What's that got to do with the price of tea in china?
If your idea of arguing is to tell people that im uneducated, then fine, im uneducated, i never taste college, just local highschool in some remote area in Indonesia.
I think everybody already knows that.
[__i am happy to argue anything provided that it's a free spirited argument where people don't throw big words when they don't know what it means.__]
What big words? First you said liberty is laughable and funny, then its suddenly a big word.
Apparently, wikipedia agrees with me on definition of liberty, which includes the right of privacy.
You can keep saying that I dont know the meaning, but then, I havent seen YOUR version of its definition, only statements that you KNOW better than I do.
mmmmkay dude...
Tell you what, share your definition and knowledge here. Perhaps we all can learn something new.
[__Since i wrote a position paper arguing almost exactly that - that wiretaps are essentially a violation of citizens right - a few years ago when i was still at school, you will pardon my curiosity to hear your arguments.__]
You can write all the papers you want. Im an Indonesian, I used to be a buruh. I experienced tyranny of the government 11-13 years ago.
You want to hear my arguments on liberty? here it is:
"I dont want to experience those things again, especially if I somehow befriended wrong guys, which shady business i dunno about. "
And I dont want those small reptilians support organization people to win, especially when they have been infiltrated by prabowo's people.
[__btw, if you're curious, you said you're 30, i am right about your age. __]
Nope, not really curious. Kinda dont care actually.
Its not that hard to track your identity. Especially when you know somebody in government agency such as... uhm *cough* that exact government agency with tapping power that we've been talking about.
You were the one that works in some intel agency, no? Or were you the one who loved to play NWN? I played it too, u know ...Or did my friends get the wrong guy, again? Perhaps when i have time i will ask somebody to cross-check on wife database they have, i only have people in NGO database.
But i already know what kind of person i will find, a pompous all-knowing guy, with all the papers he wrote, who thinks he can pay everything, anybody, to get what he wants.
perhaps not. not worth the time.
[__HoD was persistent on appearing smart everywhere with big words and channeling some twisted modern day Guevara on Rails. __]
LOL. What? Why? you feel offended by that? Your "superiority complex" cant accept that?
FINE. I accept your superior knowledge on all things, Oh, Almighty TreeSpotter.
[__ Harbinger Of Death and eh, by all means, you wanna spit it out in Indonesian, i speak your language better than you do, too. __]
Okay, here it is:
Kowe ini pengejawantahan sempurna dari sajak "bebane wong londho".
It can become law (UU), if the MPs want to. An XO is effectively a law.
VEYR WRONG. PERPPU is not law, i've tried explaining this many times, you keep pushing it, and i'll keep on pounding it.
If MPS want a Law, they can make it happen. That's why they're called 'legislators' - as opposed to us citizens.
Like I said, come back when you learn something new.
I picked on you precisely because you appered somewhat more educated and capable of holding a proper arguments, though at this point, repeating that "PERPPU is Law" like some magic mantra just makes you sound delusional.
You want to know How Soeharto got to where he was? By issuing PERPPU. That's his instrument of choice to keep his power for 30 years.
I dread in trembling fear as Indonesian presidents start going back to scribbling PERPPU at will.
On Your wikipedia clip: i am 100% agreeing with the Ben Franklin says.
I'm not entirely sure how you expect me to argue with a wikipedia entry though i suspect you were only looking to prove me uneducated.
You started with namedropping Sjahrir and Soepomo and Indonesian founding fathers, and probably having felt successful to probably embarass me in my Indonesian history, you decided to start going with American Founding Fathers.
which provoked me to call on your big words because you claim to be all for "LIBERTY" and "Separation of Powers" and all that, and yet you can't to see how a violation of executive powers is a threat to basic freedom in Indonesia.
Anyone with any perspective on government and basic rights and "Separation of Powers" will see that it is indeed the single biggest threat to basic freedom in Indonesia.
For you to claim a 'libertarian' label while proposing to support this position, is simply a hypocrite and a knucklehead.
Whereas you want to go now, boasting your self help genius with a delusional rambling of Prabowo sponsored movement for Cicak i will leave it to the people from Cicak to defend themselves. Bung Ajo or Enda can probably explain what Cicak is.
Personally, i'm not sure what the whole cicak thing was about - thus my characterizations of it as ar reptilian dispute.
My Attorney had just informed me that i have probably said something not entirely accurate here the first time.
I didn't actually write the friends of the court paper. When i was 15, i was involved with the authority in a privacy related case on telecomunication network - where the most critical element of the case revolved on the proving that my basic privacy was unlawfully violated. I was underage so nothing came out of it but that's how i intimately got involved with the subject.
It's also the same reason that despite my fascination with the American Founding Fathers and their vision of Liberty, i feel very uncomfortable to ever be stateside again for any reason other than the most absolutely necessary.
I have been self employed for more than two years. For you to allude that i worked with the government - or any respectable agency - is quite simply laughable. I got kicked out of school more times than i care to count, the blog has records of it as i occasionally went Holden on myself. i have court records - precisely for the issues you're so passionate about - privacy and stuff.
so i challenge you that if and whenever you came out of your delusional trip, let's have a proper argument for your self proclaimed libertarian clause.
You think KPK is a violation of basic rights as a libertarian position, i disagree. I asked only for you to explain how and invite you to a proper debate.
So far, the best response i heard is your Prabowo conspiracy theories - which for the record - i won't even entertain since it sounds too much like a new rendition of a Red Scare conspiracy theory.
I don't have many friends in Indonesia because i'm probably too liberal for most (also because I'm a complete asshole but that's a different story). I don't think there's enough people in Indonesia that cared about citizens right.
I was very happy to have found here the first time around because i thought finally, there's someone smart enough and care enough on the issues that concerns their fello citizens.
You disappointed me greatly on all counts - i don't think you understand what libertarian is, your position on PERPPU is an obvious example.
The fact that you keep me around and amused here, well, i got nothing better to do. I recently observed a troll-ish quality about myself that i often find selfhumoring.
PS: Yes, i play NWN (religiously, i love that game, again you need only to read my blog to find that out).
What completely frustrates me is the fact that your arguments go no further than claiming me of some foreign and alien perspective, patronizing tone of your vitriolic juice to claim Indonesia for those who only speak and sounds like an Indonesian - like you think of what Indonesian is.
I've lived in Indonesia for several years now and i think Indonesia is a lot more than speaking and sounding right.
Indonesia is falling apart, precisely because people who sound differently to the majority - the disenfranchised and the unheard, the less fortunate of the country - are not having their rightful chance to be heard.
Because i think the smart and educated ones - like yourselves - were too busy romanticizing some vague and abstract notion of an unrealistic plane - without ever bothering to participate and make it real. Because i think the smart and educated ones are too busy in their silence, some national onanism and self gratification that in having done your five yearly multiple choice exercise, you have satisfied your civic duties for a better government.
this is something i wrote last week on why i think Indonesia should be embarrassed of itself. http://treeatwork…-middle.html
If you go back in any of my posts here - or any on any of my blogs you would not find me making a single position arguing about right or wrong in KPK case.
My sole and only concern was and remains: How could Indonesia not care when their most basic rights were violated? How is it that a constitutional mandate be altered by simple phone calls of a very chosen few? Is that not against every principle of what a democracy and a civil society is?
on that note, i sent Mr. Andi Mallarangeng a letter, which later brought us here.
and for all your banal threats of tracking me down
...and your pitiless moans of being a 'buruh' under an oppressive regime and all your heroic revolutionary complex,
...and for your most astute observation of a white man syndrome,
...and your self implicitness in your brown man inferiority,
let me say this, the only reason i write in English is because my mother taught me language.
She writes beautiful Indonesian, too but Soeharto put her in prison for doing it. That's how i got kicked out of school and moved around and stuff. That's probably why i can't get a proper job now. (maybe, who knows, i don't have titles and stuff cause i blew my scholarship and bought a Porsche).
I speak any of your languages here, i live in Bandung for a year (with another police record there), so I'll take Sundanese, too.
... that and more exciting stories, on treespotter.blogspot.com
I might as well use this as a self promotion.
hamatamu: conscientizacao: NOS: Red-White Eagle: i thought we're all for a free spirited argument right? might as well dance a little.
A revolution without a dance, is one not worth having.
Happy holiday all, i hope you're having a good weekend, too!
on twitter? i'll check, but i'm out of town and internet is a bit dumb today. will check...
i'm on twitter most of the time anyhow.
...and if you mentioning Prabowo was some deluded and misguided slip designed to imply my opinion of Mr. Soebianto - i don't intend to entertain even that notion. a google on Prabowo Soebianto would return the article i wrote about Mr. Soebianto on the top result. my views of him is a matter of public record.
...and to your sarcastic remarks of me running my own dictatorships, well, sir, i indeed have such plans. It's very well labeled on my blog, under World Domination Plan. I occasionally publish my legislative agenda there.
...and last, to your snides at my intellectual arrogance, why sir, you're not the first person to say that. I have been known and willing to admit to being a complete asshole most of the times. It's better to be proud and smart rather than proud and stupid.
...the line about dancing was from the film V for Vendetta, where he also said, "People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people."
and that my friend, is what brought us here to this name slinging mud.
I returned to Jakarta in 1998 to find the city on fire, spending most of the three days and the following months everywhere in Jakarta - from Salemba to Senayan to Cendana - because mother was intent on reporting the story. She is now enjoying her retirement days and no longer dabble in journalism but you can understand that your whinging on your occupational burden does not appeal to me.
...all the language reference i made, if anyone remember the film Tombstone, when they're about to argue in latin?
Ringo patted his gun and said, "Eventus stultorum magister" - it means fools must learn by experience.
(courtesy of IMDB).
this is sooo much fun. feels very holiday-ish.
Tah, geuning didinya ngarti bahasa sunda...alus atuh nyak...
Saya ingin sekali menyampaikan pendapat saya soal diskusi Anda berdua di sini, tapi dalam bentuk artikel saja. Saya butuh ruang untuk berpanjang-lebar...
Well. Im just Speaking the truth. PERPPU CAN BECOME UU if DPR WANTS IT TOO. Go google it if you have too.
[_You want to know How Soeharto got to where he was? By issuing PERPPU._]
No. He was using INPRES. Its like an XO, but requires no supervision from DPR.
As for PERPPU, is something like government sponsored UU(=LAW) with later supervision from MPs.
IF DPR agrees with it, they can elevate a PERPPU to UU, or cancel it if they dont.
PERPPUs are NOT absolute, that is why their existence is not automatically against liberty, their CONTENT, however, can.
Even if president make one that is against liberty, DPR can cancel it, the people can ask MK to cancel it, etc, and there is nothing president can do about, unless if president DECREE the DPR or MK to be dissolved.
Some degree of power control (AKA. Separation of powers) is still there.
EXAMPLE. During the campaign, it has been said that if DPR(MPs) fail to make UU on TIPIKOR, President should make the PERPPU until the next MPs inaugurated, and can become the basis for the new UU TIPIKOR.
[_I'm not entirely sure how you expect me to argue with a wikipedia entry though i suspect you were only looking to prove me uneducated._]
No. I wasnt. YOU were doing it. I was just answering your question about liberty.
Its your own self-made trap.
[_You started with namedropping Sjahrir and Soepomo and Indonesian founding fathers, and probably having felt successful to probably embarass me in my Indonesian history, you decided to start going with American Founding Fathers._]
You assume too much about other people's intention. Poor soul...
I drop their names, because its relevant.
[__Whereas you want to go now, boasting your self help genius with a delusional rambling of Prabowo sponsored movement for Cicak__]
This is a simple question: do you know how many people from prabowo's campaign joined cicak? I can point one. You probably knew him, heck you probably know more.
[_For you to allude that i worked with the government - or any respectable agency - is quite simply laughable._]
Oh ok. Then my info about that was wrong. I can scratch that name now. Its not hard to admit that im wrong.
[_I asked only for you to explain how and invite you to a proper debate. _]
Simple reasons and simple debate on KPK.
No direct supervision, only regular audits. No need to consult to other branch of gov. No limit on tappings, they can practically do that for a whole year, and exclude it from audits by reason as simple as:"penyidikan masih berjalan". Too many internal rules, none of them requires something like PP or Juklak.
[_So far, the best response i heard is your Prabowo conspiracy theories _]
Its not conspiracy theory, im just scared of him, so keep an eye to people who were in his campaigns.
Im just scared of him, i think almost everybody here knows that.
[_I don't have many friends in Indonesia because i'm probably too liberal for most (also because I'm a complete asshole but that's a different story)._]
Oh i agree with you, completely
[__You disappointed me greatly on all counts - i don't think you understand what libertarian is, your position on PERPPU is an obvious example.__]
Go compare with American XO, PERPPU can still be cancelled by the MPs.
And the notion that PERPPUs generally against liberty is completely rubbish.
If im not mistaken, even the last general election was under PERPPU. But then, unlike you, I can be wrong though.
[_PS: Yes, i play NWN (religiously, i love that game, again you need only to read my blog to find that out). __]
AH, ok. Then you're probably THAT guy. You wrote that in your blog? really? we're talking about never winter nights, right?
[_What completely frustrates me is the fact that your arguments go no further than claiming me of some foreign and alien perspective, patronizing tone of your vitriolic juice to claim Indonesia for those who only speak and sounds like an Indonesian - like you think of what Indonesian is._]
You seems like that type, you now, with all the name calling and whatnot. You sound like an old-grumpy from jalan jaksa.
I never claim Indonesia is only for any specific types, you just did.
[_...and your pitiless moans of being a 'buruh' under an oppressive regime and all your heroic revolutionary complex,_]
Nope you're wrong. I was just a coward back then, i still am with all these protection i took.
I drop that just to show how simple and uneducated I am, how simple it is what I want:
A basic constitutional right on liberty, ESPECIALLY on privacy.
....
Anyway, im a bit confuse here, which part of the last PERPPU that you claim altered the constitution?
Gw malah jadi bingung lagi setelah debat.
Apakah PERPPU merupakan produk hukum?
Apakah benar PERPPU bisa jadi produk hukum seperti UU ?
Yang menjadi persoalan selanjutnya ialah, ketika RUU Penetapan Perpu tersebut kemudian ditolak
oleh DPR, maka Perpu tersebut menjadi tidak memiliki kekuatan hukum mengikat.
Meskipun begitu, menurut Jimly Ashiddiqie, pada dasarnya presiden dapat menyimpangi ketentuan tersebut untuk menyelamatkan pemerintahannya — dalam term pemerintahan otoritarian — dan menghindari penolakan persetujuan dari DPR, sembari menunggu keluarnya undang-undang yang sesungguhnya, presiden dapat mengeluarkan Perpu untuk jangka waktu satu tahun, untuk selanjutnya dicabut kembali oleh presiden atau ditolak oleh DPR.
Dari: Kertas Kerja, Menyelamatkan Pengadilan Tipikor: Beberapa Pilihan Skenario. Wahyudi Djafar, Peneliti Hukum dan Konstitusi, Konsorsium Reformasi Hukum Nasional (KRHN) di Jakarta.
Artinya, PERPPU dapat berlaku dan berfungsi sebagaimana UU, dalam waktu temporer 1 tahun?
I'm around (I just posted something on my blog, too) if you're interested.
Striding Cloud
Congratulation, you made a post.
http://treespotte…f-white.html
conscientizacao: I'm glad someone can explain it in Indonesian - he can probably understand better.
Here's a quote, directly from Prof. Dr. Mahfud MD., SH., MH - the Supreme Justice of Indonesian Constitutional Court, specifically on the legal standing of the investigation and the subsequent plans to issue a PERPPU.
"Tidak ada masalah pidana dalam kasus ini. Masalahnya murni sengketa administrasi. Kalau sengketa administrasi bukan polisi yang menangani, tetapi ditangani oleh Pengadilan Tata Usaha Negara (PTUN) melalui gugatan ke PTUN yang hanya bisa dilakukan sendiri oleh Joko dan Anggoro," kata Mahfud dalam pesan singkatnya yang diterima detikcom, Sabtu (19/9/2009).
Striding Cloud:
Do come back after you're finished with the civic lesson.
Istilah lain, adalah istilah darurat/emergency legislation. Tapi akan berbeda dengan situasi berbahaya, misalnya yg berkaitan dengan perang. Keadaan bahaya hanyalah salah satu faktor saja bagi timbulnya suatu kegentingan yang memaksa. Bisa juga sebab dari dalam.
Apakah kurangnya pimpinan KPK termasuk kategori ini?
Im honored.
Its ironic, you first use name calling because of differences in opinion, yet im the troll?
You keep saying that you have superior knowledge on liberty, yet when a wiki definition agrees with my concept of liberty that includes privacy, you look down on me?
And its not a veiled threat, it is an example how powers like KPK had can be used for personal reasons, and nobody can do anything about it, coz, like mahfud said, its "KPK's authority".
See how hypocrite you are?
You're OK with KPK's powers, as long as it is not directed towards you.
You seem to be okay with extraordinary powers cannot easily be controlled, yet you shout on a temporary law concept and categorically calling it against liberty?
And again, you put me in the category of "educated men", which is wrong, i wasnt educated.
Your article on "why these indonesians to blame on bla bla bla" is EXACTLY rudyard kipling-ish.
.. please answer this question:
[_Anyway, im a bit confused here, which part of the last PERPPU that you claim altered the constitution? _]
Permasalahannya dengan "orang ini" adalah,
1. Pertama dia bilang dia lebih tahu tentang banyak hal, bahwa saya tidak tahu apa-apa soal "liberty", dan cuma omong besar, padahal definisi sederhana soal privasi saja sudah menjelaskan posisi saya.
2. Dia membela segara kewenangan KPK, seolah2 itu tidak bertentangan dengan "liberty", sedangkan PERPPU dikatakannya secara kategoris bertentangan dengan "liberty", padahal PERPPU dikeluarkan oleh presiden yang dipilih rakyat, dan DAPAT dikoreksi, sedangkan kewenangan KPK adalah milik sekumpulan eksklusif pilihan DPR.
Menurut saya, bertentangan dengan liberty atau tidak, adalah tergantung isi PERPPU, bukan pada hak mengeluarkan PERPPU.
3. Dia menganggap bahwa keinginan memasukkan konsep liberty dalam UUD, adalah patut ditertawakan.
Bisa lihat betapa memuakkan orang ini?
Saya juga sudah bosan kok, dari kemaren malam. Tapi kalau diterusin, ya ayok
Sudah lihat curhatannya belum? lucu lhoh!
Jangan bernafsu mencari kebenaran sejati, pasang saja dulu.
Kasi disclaimer untuk minta dikoreksi.
Striding Cloud: kindly point out to anywhere on politikana - or on the internet where i expressed unqualified support for KPK?
So far in my experiment in joining politikana i have not yet said anything about my position on KPK - my concerns, from the very beginning was about the reckless approach from President SBY in addressing a constitutional issue.
Kindly point out any statement i might have made where i seem to express some unqualified support for the KPK please, if you will?
your point 3 about "liberty" and UUD is something you completely made up.
anyone reading this thread can see just what a blasted knucklehead you are.
Oh ok, i could be wrong.
So you're against KPK?
[ your point 3 about "liberty" and UUD is something you completely made up. ]
Nope. You didt find it laughable, by first misrepresenting my position.
Ref. [ http://politikana…omment-89214 ]
Its your own words: L-A-U-G-H-A-B-L-E
Really? kindly point who?
And... please answer my question:
[_Anyway, im a bit confused here, which part of the last PERPPU that you claim altered the constitution? _]
btw, you're not the first troll really. don't get all too excited.
i was looking at my old archive and found this one, http://treespotte…ert-and.html
i think Cafe Salemba and Indonesia Matters both got annoyed, the latter put me in the cage.
[_I'm glad someone can explain it in Indonesian - he can probably understand better. _]
Actually he was agreeing with me that PERPPU can be considered as UU (= LAW) as supported by explanations by Jimly A.
Whereas you told me that "it was not law", and I "have to study civic".
i'm not against KPK - i don't think this discussion is about whether i am against KPK or not.
my point was, IF anyone - ANYONE at all - in this country, decided that KPK or TIPIKOR or both is no longer needed and want to do away with them, or to change them in any significant way, then it ought to be a national dialogue, a debate that belong to the nation.
That's why i wrote to Mr. Andi Mallarangeng, because i didn't think the President is getting the best advice.
We need a leadership - not so much to give us KPK or take it away or give us a completely new one - but to give a moral compass and direction for the country, and us, the citizens.
Leadership came with the burden - the sacred mandate of citizens in trusting him with the best judgment for the country.
It also rests in the civic duties of for everyone else to speak out and give the leadership the best advice.
I know what i said - not to dabble with the Constitution - and i still think so. I think changing the Constitution is not a good idea. Not only that it's complicated, it also wouldn't do much.
Constitution is a written commitment of a Nation, why bother writing one at all if Indonesia seems just too keen to break it every time - as is obvious with this PERPPU/KPK business.
Please don't make things up, it makes you sound too pity. I challenged you repeatedly, to explain what it is you mean by liberty and how you think KPK violates it and yet you called me a stupid white man.
you're just cute.
Then what is it about?
IMHO, we are talking about how can KPK's powers be controlled.
I've been saying that we need to fix the constitution, so not only KPK, no government agency have the rights to wiretap me based on suspicion only.
BUT, in the mean time, im interested to know if Police (whether they are right or wrong) can actually control KPK's power,
im interested to know if President (whether he is right or wrong) can actually control KPK's power.
Separation in powers... BALANCE of powers, is the key on preserving liberty, especially MY PRIVACY.
What were YOU talking about?
[_my point was, IF anyone - ANYONE at all - in this country, decided that KPK or TIPIKOR or both is no longer needed and want to do away with them, or to change them in any significant way,_]
In what significant way, again?
And who is this "anyone" you are talking about? You're saying that this "anyone" decided to wipe KPK or TIPIKOR out?
[_That's why i wrote to Mr. Andi Mallarangeng, because i didn't think the President is getting the best advice. _]
Thats why i translated your letter, you seemed to be easy enough to manipulate, and seemed to have enough followers to join you.
And voila! we see PERPPU.
Everything falls exactly where i expected, now we wait for the next results.
[__We need a leadership - not so much to give us KPK or take it away or give us a completely new one - but to give a moral compass and direction for the country, and us, the citizens._]
Ahhh... that legendary compass!!
You should be a religious leader, or something...
[_I challenged you repeatedly, to explain what it is you mean by liberty and how you think KPK violates it and yet you called me a stupid white man._]
No, i never called you that, i called you "white man's burden"-ish, doesnt necessarily mean that you are a "white" or even a "man".
"Stupid" seemed to be your favorite word, not mine. Is that what your mother used to call you?
I have explained to you my understanding on "liberty". Should I repeat it again?
Oh yeah, you're right, I AM cute
ah. well, here - QUOTE:
IMHO, we are talking about how can KPK's powers be controlled.
I've been saying that we need to fix the constitution, so not only KPK, no government agency have the rights to wiretap me based on suspicion only.
BUT, in the mean time, im interested to know if Police (whether they are right or wrong) can actually control KPK's power,
im interested to know if President (whether he is right or wrong) can actually control KPK's power.
Separation in powers... BALANCE of powers, is the key on preserving liberty, especially MY PRIVACY.
What were YOU talking about?
**** END QUOTE
I was talking about what Bung Ajo was saying, and the other guy on the other post and myself on my post - that the PERPPU plan is the wrong way of doing things.
I never was thinking that i was participating in a debate about KPK. I was concerned about the crisis of leadership in this country. full stop.
GM wrote in his caping last week, "Krisis" - if you need to make sense of it.
This country is a very real crisis and yet, we're supposed to be on a Holy Day. Sad innit?
[_I was talking about what Bung Ajo was saying, and the other guy on the other post and myself on my post - that the PERPPU plan is the wrong way of doing things._]
OK.
My opinion is this, SP3 instructed by the PRESIDENT is the wrong way.
Because there is no mechanism, that i know about, that can prevent President's instruction.
So it is better if President never use that power, as far as i know, he hasnt use that power, yet.
ON PERPPU however, we have a mechanism to control it. First, its automatically cancelled within a year. Second, DPR can reject it or make contesting law to cancel it. Third, we can contest it to MK.
See my point? Even if president made the errors on the content of PERPPU, we, the lambs, still have a weapon to contest it.
As for SP3 (not just on this case), i dont know any way to contest it, except if there is actual quantified losses on a citizen, only then he can contest it, not in criminal court, but administrative.
Its like narcotics, you know, once president use it, he will use it again.
Presidents use their judgment in investigation cases a lot more often than you think - parliamentary members, cabinet members and a number of other holders of public office require notice to the President. President and Chief of Police consult regularly on this matter as part of governing the nation. At Prof. Mahfud just reiterated - the issue of KPK's lawful authority falls within procedural law, not criminal one. Therefore it is a decision that The Chief of Police has to make - in consultation with his Commander in Chief, the President of the Republic.
PERPPU is a whole different matter. As you rightly pointed out this gross instrument of executive power is very similar to narcotics - once they use it, they'll use it again. that's why i am against using PERPPU for anything - even to sub for the Tipikor Law, but that's for later.
As an executive instrument - thus 'in lieu of Law' - and just like a normal Law, a PERPPU requires set of rules and detailed instructions.
In the case of President Soeharto, he used these instrument - in the form of Keppres and Inpres - during the earlier days of his presidency, mostly claiming urgency of the cold war communist threats. In the later days when the consolidated power base have enough power in the form of what is presently Partai Golkar, he no longer needed to issue these instruments because there he found a complicit parliament to write laws as he wanted it.
The Justice Minister just announced that the President is drafting a Keppres detailing how KPK is now a presidential apointee, ready before the President leaves for a business trip on Sept 23, two days from now.
.
[_At Prof. Mahfud just reiterated - the issue of KPK's lawful authority falls within procedural law, not criminal one. _]
Unless, IF there is a criminal proof on its abuse.
That is what im interested in, for that to be proven in the court of law.
[_Therefore it is a decision that The Chief of Police has to make - in consultation with his Commander in Chief, the President of the Republic._]
Yes, but that implies The President has all the intention to break KPK, instead of preventing himself of using the power of direct instruction.
Assuming the intention of president or anyone, is something i dont usually do.
Questioning it, is still OK, though.
However, The president has specifically said his intention not to intervene with on going investigation. So?
[__that's why i am against using PERPPU for anything - even to sub for the Tipikor Law, but that's for later.__]
Our Parliament is notorious for its laziness. The numbers of LAW edicted during the last era, was disappointing.
Without PERPPU, i dont think many things can be done in Indonesia, heck even some aspect of The General Election is based PERPPU (or was it "all aspects"?)
The most important thing is: We, the lambs, CAN contest it.
Now im waiting for another movement to use that power, there was a politikana contributor that has experience to contest a law. It would be interesting. Just wait for it.
......
So in this matter, we only differ in opinion. Doesnt necessarily that any of us were stupid. Either uninformed on specific things, or having differences in opinions.
In all case, its much better to have a civilised discussion than mere namecallings.
Check out my latest post.
http://politikana…liberty.html
like now.
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